The case for Redemptions

Iā€™ve brought up the idea of Redemptions as an improvement to 1Hive a few times recently and wanted to take the time to do a more in depth write up explaining what exactly I mean by it, and why I think it would be good for 1Hive to implement.

Simply put, Redemptions would allow Honey to be exchanged for a proportional share of liquid assets in the 1Hive treasury.

For example, letā€™s say there is 100 Honey in circulation, and the treasury holds 100 Dai and 10 Ether, if someone were to redeem 50 Honey, they would receive 50 Dai and 5 Ether. The new state of the system would be 50 Honey in circulation and 50 Dai and 5 Ether in the treasury.

While the mechanism is fairly straightforward, the impact on the dynamics of Honey and the incentives within the 1Hive community are significant and imo very positive.

  1. Establishing a price floor based on the value of liquid assets in the treasury.

If Honey holders are the beneficiaries of the 1Hive treasury (which they are imo). Then there is no justifiable reason for Honey to ever trade below the value of liquid treasury assets. Considering the value of current and past investments, brand value, etc it should realistically always trade at a premium to the liquid treasury value.

Redemptions would enable people to arb the price of Honey relative to the liquid treasury assets, which would effectively establish a price floor and prevent Honey from trading below that value for any extended period of time.

  1. Allocating treasury funds using conviction voting

The core governance mechanism of 1Hive is to allocate Honey from the common pool in order to fund contributions that bring the most value back to the community.

Conviction Voting is used to regulate how Honey flows from the common pool for this purpose, it ensures that common pool value doesnā€™t disappear over night, and allows for minority interests to be fairly represented in fund allocations.

This is why the required conviction for a funding proposal depends on how much is requested, and if you request to much of the common pool may even require more than 100 percent conviction and not be possible to pass at all.

Due to the disconnect between the value of the 1Hive treasury and the common pool, we have found ourselves in a situation where there is relatively little value available to request in the common pool compared to the treasury. And we are starting to see proposals which seek to spend treasury funds directly in order to circumvent the common pool and conviction voting mechanism that is used to govern 1Hiveā€™s community funding mechanism. (1)(2)

While redemptions wouldnā€™t prevent people from trying to circumvent 1Hiveā€™s governance since it would still be possible to petition the treasury multisig, it would help alleviate the pressure to do and social acceptability of such proposals by ensuring that there is a link between Honey in the common pool and the value of the treasury.

In the context of gardens v2 Iā€™ve seen it suggested that we might have many pools with different assets all controlled by Honey using conviction voting so we should not be concerned about this, since we would be able to allocate treasury funds using conviction voting in that wayā€¦ however such a scheme would still require the treasury multisig to fund this pools first, which is problematic (see the next point), and both unnecessary and overly complex if we were to redemptions.

  1. Reducing dependency on multisig governance

While having a treasury multisig has been a huge boon and necessary part of 1Hiveā€™s governance, it is also a huge issue from a decentralization and automation perspective.

Multisig governance does not have the same guarantees about how funds are used that the common pool does, a faction of multisig holders could collude and empty the treasury in a manner of minutes at any time for any reason. Currently the council safe requires 4 signatures of the 10 members.

Redemptions would not solve the problem of a rouge faction of 4 signers rugging the community (though we can and should fix that too!)ā€¦ it would be a step in the right direction since it would enable individual honey holders to exit if they disagreed with how the multisig was being used or allocated. It would also allow indivdividual honey holders the ability to leverage the treasury to impact the price of Honey, rather than depend on them to take ongoing action to buy Honey from the market to maintain a ā€œsoft pegā€ as suggested recently by Paul as an alternative to something like redemptions.

  1. Concentrating Honey in the hands of aligned stake holders

Initially, or perhaps even before, when redemptions gets implemented there is likely to be significant correction involving Redemptions and buying of Honey that will result in higher price for Honey and a reduced value of the treasury.

It is hard to predict where the treasury value will stabilize, but it would be reasonable to expect price to stabilize relative its initial redemption value in the short term.

Whatever the case may be, the result of redemptions will concentrate the value of each remaining Honey in circulation. Given a circulating supply of 50k currently, if you have 1K Honey you own 2% of 1Hive, if redemptions reduces the supply to 25k, that same 1K honey is now 4% of 1Hive. While redemption value / price is still the same regardless of how many other people redeem, your upside in terms of potential growth is much much higher.

I suspect this will be incredibly healthy for the dynamics of contribution and speculationā€¦ anecdotally I have heard contributors in the past who felt like they were working hard for the benefit of useless speculators who bought honey cheap back in the day and that they didnā€™t really like thatā€¦ this outlook is toxic for the community. But itā€™s not an unreasonable position given where 1Hive is/was. My hope is that redemptions would help bring the state of Honey (if viewed like a cap table) into a much healthier state and allow speculative investors and contributors to become more closely aligned in purpose.

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This has gotten pretty long already, but hopefully it helps better explain my thinking and rationale on this. I have some thoughts on possible implementations, but Iā€™ll add them a bit later.

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this makes a LOT of sense!

Wow, I actually didnā€™t know we only have 4/10. Bees seem to be really honest people :smiley:

This is extremely true! I also felt like that, haha, but itā€™s not uncommon in web3ā€¦most people work for the people that bought Bitcoin and ETH in the beginning :smiley:

Overall, my only worry is what if people redeem all the treasury, but maybe Iā€™m not understanding the concept fully, which is very likely.

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Its not possible for people to redeem all of the treasury as long as you still hold some Honey. Since each Honey is a claim on a share of the treasury, there isnā€™t any rush to exit, someone exiting doesnā€™t reduce the redemption value of your Honey, but it does increase your share of ownership of 1Hive as a whole.

Perhaps thats not quite what you meant though, I think there is also a fear that while its impossible for all of the treasury to be redeemed, the option to exit might be popular enough that the treasury value is greatly reduced. This is possible, and even likely, though to what degree is hard to predict.

However, I donā€™t think its something to worry too much about both because it feels like the right thing to doā€“If people donā€™t have confidence, they should be able to exit with their fair share, and the people remaining will have much greater upside and because when 1Hive first started we had zero treasury, we started by distributing honey on testnet, having a high concentration of people who are interested in building something together is more important than treasury value in terms of building something valuable.

Right now it doesnā€™t seem like there is a clear vision for what we should be working on to build real value for Honey, but I think it becomes much easier to coordinate around that problem as the people remaining have a much greater percentage stake in the shared enterprise, so even in the ā€œworstā€ case where most honey gets redeemed, the people remaining will likely have much easier figuring out where to go from there then we currently do.

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The effects of enabling HNY redemptions would be:

  • Honey transferred from LPs to redemption contract by arbs
  • Treasury funds moved from redemption contract to LPs by arbs, minus their profit
  • Treasury funds distributed to people exiting HNY (with no price slippage)

This would shrink our treasury at the benefit of arbitrageurs and people leaving 1Hive. It brings no new growth potential for 1Hive, and no correlation between the HNY holders claiming those tokens and the people at 1Hive who were responsible for earning that funding in the first place (unlike typical ragequit mechanisms).

There are also MUCH much better ways of linking management of our non-HNY tokens to holding HNY in Gardens v2. We can use v2 signaling pools to decide on our portfolio weights, and to choose a % of treasury funds weā€™ll invest in growth each year. We can also allocate that investment using CV funding pools for things that will grow the treasury.

The best part is that we have a clear path for doing this already. Gardens has raised $60k + in external funding this year alone, and has real traction with prominent web3 communities and grants programs. We have a platform that helps web3 OSS projects (like ourselves) launch independent token communities, and we can leverage this to grow value for the 1Hive Treasury.

A good litmus test for what our next move at 1Hive should be is whether it makes you personally want to invest more money into 1Hive or cash out the HNY you have. Personally Iā€™d want to be first in line to cash out if there was a redemptions contract.

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Along with honey holders that choose to stay via price appreciation and greater percentage of equity ownership.

The loss to arbitrage is minor relative to the benefits to ALL honey holders both those who choose to stay and those who choose to leave.

This is premised on the idea that the treasury belongs to Honey holders, which I think has been a generally accepted notion since the inception of the treasury, with yourself even reaffirming recently. With major sources of funding of the treasury being granted to 1Hive as a whole (eg agave grant and xdai/gno grants for validating), while there were individuals who contributed more directly to related efforts, they have also already been compensated for those contributions with Honey.

Iā€™m all for further decentralization of the manage of our non-HNY tokens, the idea of using conviction voting to directly adjust the weighting of our treasury is fantastic and I hope we get there. Having a mechanism to adjust the rate of outflows thats a single percentage that can be controlled via conviction voting as well sounds greatā€¦

However it doesnā€™t actually link the value of the treasury assets to the price of Honey, which I think is necessary for many of the reasons above.

Thatā€™s awesome but sort of irrelevant?

Even if gardens turns out to be smashing success and gets widespread adoption and there are lots of protocol fees and some portion of those protocol fees go to the 1Hive treasury, we still need redemptions to ensure that growth is reflected in the price of Honey.

I strongly agree with this!

If we adopted redemptions I would definitely attempt to cash out and then buy more Honey until Honey reaches the expected price floor (assuming the price didnt already correct before implementation). From there I would be much more comfortable holding and even expanding my position in Honey or recommending it to others because 1) the cost for a given percentage of equity will be lower and 2) there is a much stronger fundamental value for the token 3) I donā€™t have to trust the multi sig as much as I currently have to 4) its a strong signal that we can actually get things done that benefit honey holders (which is a legit concern since many contributors seem to be subtly antagonistic towards speculative honey holders).

In contrast, not adopting redemptions leaves us at essentially the status quoā€¦ and objectively speaking that doesnā€™t seem to inspire much confidence as we have seen the price continue to decline. If people were confident in the direction and what we are currently doing is working, why is the price where it is? Why should I want to invest more in something that seems to just go down? Why should I hold onto it when I receive it if I expect it to just go down?

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The treasury belongs to Honey holders yes, but that doesnā€™t mean Honey holders should be able to claim it for themselves.

Just like how a city governmentā€™s treasury is owned by its citizens, but for good reason cities donā€™t let people claim a portion of the treasury for themselves either.

That said, I support using redemptions to create a price floor for Honey, as long as:

  • The redemption price of Honey is set lower than its current price - so anyone using redemptions to exit Honey does so at a discount. Also, since the market cap of Honey is lower than treasury assets, we could support this using only a portion of treasury funds and still be able to invest in other growth strategies.
  • Tokens are added to the contract incrementally - so we can gauge the appetite for exiting Honey first and give the community a chance to pause and decide if spending treasury funds on those people is worth the benefits of this method of price support.

This would definitely help us secure more shared liquidity for Honey since weā€™d essentially be a stablecoin at that point, which I think is a great growth strategy for 1Hive.

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I donā€™t think its a common interpretation that a city governmentā€™s treasury is owned by its citizens. I think in the context of 1Hive and how the treasury was formed the expectation was much closer to that of a company and its shareholders. And it is generally not healthy for a companyā€™s shares to trade below the value if its capital assets, let alone its liquid cash on hand.

What the price of honey is telling us right now is that there is little confidence that the treasury will be used to create future value for Honey, that it will simply be wasted, and thus it is trading below the value of our liquid assets. Even though we also have non-liquid assets that are generating return (eg we still have an active gnosis validator I believe), and we have gardens that has promised to share some portion of its revenue with us, and we have an existing brand, etc.

The fair value of Honey should be the combined value of our liquid assets + the speculative value of all of our other illiquid and intangible assets. Redemptions is the only way I can see to provide a smart contract guarantee that approximates that.

I donā€™t see how anything being discussed in this thread would make Honey ā€œessentially a stablecoinā€. Nor do I think that would be in any way desirableā€¦

Yes thatā€™s what I meant

Hmm, now I understood the redemptions idea better, I think itā€™s a cool idea, but also highly experimental.

What if we started not with redemptions but ā€œinvestmentsā€ and allow honey holders to propose how to :smiley:
-Invest the treasury into other yield gen assets and other assets
-invest in projects
-start doing Grants

For grants we would need to have strict eligibility and also a plan for what we want to see-but we have a lotta tools for grants these days. Grants are a great way to grow an ecosystem and I think itā€™s actually what 1hive is lacking for growth, also agree that grants have issues, but weā€™re lucky here, Iā€™ve reviewed over 3000 grant applications in my carreer(my last three years in web3 have been 80% focused on grant programs). Iā€™m also very accostumed with all the grant tooling we need for tracking, funding, etc and these tools are really great. Not shilling myself here, just saying itā€™s something we can do and I coulc also bring other experts in if we need them.

Some ideas on grants:
-doing a 1Hive QF round for Growth during GG22- I could help us draft a proposal to get matching from Gitcoi
n, we would get 50% of the funds from them with a min 15k-which is not a fortune for 1hive
-having direct grants to grow 1hive -also using Gitcoin protocol-so onchain as well

FYI I am on the community council there so canā€™t vote for us, but can help draft the proposal. Iā€™m sure we would get support from Owocki as well- he loves 1hive

LETā€™S BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

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1Hive as a whole was and still is highly experimental :smiley:

Thatā€™s what we are already doing with the common pool.

Redemptions aims to link the value of our liquid treasury with Honey, so that we can continue to use the common pool to make investments (while retaining the benefits of having conviction voting parameters regulate the rate of outflows). Without redemptions, we start having to make requests to the council safe to allocate resources and essentially bypass our core governace protocol in favor of a multisig.

I would love to see more proposals and competing ideas submitted to the common pool, Iā€™m not against using the treasury to fund things, I just think that we need to make it so that the process for doing so goes through Honey and Conviction voting, and that we minimize the authority of the multisig and maximize the agency of individual honey holders in the process (because we are a DAO or at least should strive to live up to that ideal).

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I once wrote blog post about ā€œwhen the rules of the game change & what is liquidityā€

both talks about the shifts of attention, money and people.

If there is push into getting more people to use common pool or have more ideas, you got bring attention to common pool and have liquidity to back it up.

People time need to put into this so the light can be turned on, without talking and discussing its hard to kick the ball.

This is nostr clients using the light network, its were alot of crazy things happen, interesting subjects werid stuff happening in crypto, hot topic etc

you can tip people for their ideas or their comments.

I wants be there (Ā“ āˆ€ ` *) ~ I am actually their <(ļæ£ļø¶ļæ£)>

poeple need incentive to start typing in 1hive ~

show me the incentive I show you the outcome ~